Curse

freekedoutfish · May 27, 2007, 07:21 PM // 19:21

Because PUGs are near impossible to find for Hard Mode to complete mission, I decided to focus on vanquishing. I set my eyes on Cantha because it seems the easiest to vanquish.

So far im 6/33 on areas done.

Now the whole indea of the vanguisher title, and the machanism is fine. I enjoy doing it. The only down side is the fact you get forced to leave the instance once you reach 60%.

I understand why Anet did it that. To make it harder! They obviously dont want people being able to just keep ressing over and over again, because they think that makes it easy.

What they didnt seem to realise was that once you reach -60dp in hard mode instances, your stuffed anyway. There is NO way you can continue in most zones at that level.

But because your constantly watching your DP, you get stressed out! You dont have the luxary of knowing you can ress as many times as you like. It puts you on edge, and you have to NOT die.

Your having to constantly observe, your DP, your heroes DP and guess your hench DP. And dieing, isnt something you can avoid in hard mode. Its going to happen!

It doesnt matter how good a player you are, I very much doubt anyone is good enough to ensure every member of their team stays alive.

Now because its near impossible to find hard mode mission PUGs, its going to be completely impossible to find PUGs to vanquish. This means you limited to using AI!

This then rases alot of issues...

1) You cant see hench dealth penalty.
2) You gain death penalty far too easy and fast in HM.
3) You cant use objects like candy cane on other party members.
4) The marchants dont even sell items like candy cane, so unless you can buy them from a player, how can you remove the dp?
5) Once you reach -60dp the buffed up creatures are impossible.

We need to be given a bit of lee-way when doing vanquishing. Some areas are fine, but in some areas once you reach -60dp one Ritualist is able to kill an entire team with spirit rift.

Now thats just an example.

We need...

1) To see Hench DP if its something we need to know and observe.
2) DP needs to be inflicted slower, or not at all in HM instances.
3) We need to recover from DP faster from kills.
4) We need something sold at the merchant that removes DP from you and/or your entire team, which is cheap.

Ive managed to vanquish 3 or 4 areas in factions over the weekend so far. But not after getting extremely angree, frustrated and shouting and screaming while I did it.

Usually when atabout -50dp, and stressed beyond high-heaven because I know my AI is all on around -50 to -60dp and if I die one more time im stuffed.

It removes the fun from the game, when it stresses you out.

I ask that they either...

1) Remove the -60dp restriction which kicks you out the instance.
2) Reduce the rate we recieve DP drastically in HM.
3) Increase the rate which we remove DP from kills in HM.
4) Give merchants some kind of food which removes DP from the entire team.

...or a combination! Something to make vanquishing less frustrating and more enjoyable.

I'm very close to just giving up on trying to vanquish, because even when your at 0dp some areas are that hard you know you will reach -60dp within minutes. And then your back to being on tender hooks and baning your head off the desk.

This is all made worse by the absolutely stupid AI in henches and the heroes, which has them either...

1) Not ressing you.
2) Running off to agro groups, or create minions.
3) Not running away when they take agro.
4) The bad guys DO NOT loos agro on you and you cant get away.

If you combine the bad AI in henches, the frustrating fact that dp is far too easy to attain, and the being kicked out at -60dp lingering on your mind...

...it just isnt fun!

bhavv · May 27, 2007, 09:20 PM // 21:20

The only thing we need to make vanquishing a lot less painfull is 7 heroes. That is the only thing that would make it enjoyable and stress free for me.

Antheus · May 27, 2007, 09:37 PM // 21:37

Let me be the obligatory: "But it's supposed to be hard!!111" Also, learn2play and all that....

HM is broken in many ways, the eles and rits being at the top of the list. Fix them, or give me a skill that can instantly wipe a group of 8 mobs from full health.

and 4) won't happen.

Aera Lure · May 27, 2007, 10:20 PM // 22:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by freekedoutfish

Now because its near impossible to find hard mode mission PUGs, its going to be completely impossible to find PUGs to vanquish. This means you limited to using AI!

That right there, for me, is the crux of the problem with hard mode and the source of great frustration. For me anyway. I agree with you too. You're pretty much forced to use AI in many, many circumstances in hard mode if you want to get anywhere. I've nearly had it up to here (yeah, I know, you cant see me gesturing lol) with hard mode, but I keep coming back a little trying to find people.

I'm fine with the idea of removing the -60% dp boot restriction, or at least providing some means of dealing with it slightly.

There will not be the use of 7 Heroes for it. Gaile was just quoted as having said so with certainty, with the desire for us not to play with all AI groups as the seeming rationale, so I'm kind of thinking this falls under that category too, and will get that sort of response from Anet (ie, having trouble with dp you canno see? dont use henchmen!), but I suppose we'll see.

freekedoutfish · May 27, 2007, 10:31 PM // 22:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Antheus

Let me be the obligatory: "But it's supposed to be hard!!111" Also, learn2play and all that....

HM is broken in many ways, the eles and rits being at the top of the list. Fix them, or give me a skill that can instantly wipe a group of 8 mobs from full health.

and 4) won't happen.

I know its meant to be hard, and i know the game inside and out, so it isnt a question of learning how to do it.

I'll give you an example of what I mean...

...I eventually vanguished this area, but the reason it was so frustrating was this...

...I originally tried to vanguish an area on the training island in factions. Got most of the creatures, but forget about the tiny little rock island with the Rit boss. The team was down to -60dp and basically i got kicked out because one shot of spirit rift would kill the entire team in seconds.

The next attempt, I went striaght for the rit boss with no dp. Even with full dp, he was impossible. My dp and my teams dp dropping everytime. I only eventually did it beacuse I got my MM some corpses.

But the point being that, its impossible to expect us to fight oober strong HM bosses with teams at -60dp AND have us know that if the entire team reaches -60dp its over.

Now it was worst the first time around, because I had 99% of all the creatures and I only need those last few 5 to get vanquisher. Can you imagine how frustrating it is, when you only need another 5 and your team cant last more then 2 seconds?

Maybe I had a bad team to face up against that certain boss, but the other creatures in the area were easy. Everything else went smoothly. But this one boss was/is a nightmare.

We either need the dp to fall slower in HM, or recover faster in HM, or have the merchant sell something that can remove dp in amounts from the whole team.

Its too much expect to micromanage our dp level, when you can die SO easily in HM. We need some lee-way or a method given to us to remove it such as candy canes, but ones we can buy cheap from the merchant.

Even if they said "can only be used in hard mode" on them.

Especially when vanguishing doesnt really give a big enough reward to go through that. Yes it fun, and yes it fullfilling to vanquish an rea. But its too stressfull at times.

MagmaRed · May 27, 2007, 10:35 PM // 22:35

Guild groups.
1 friend + 6 heroes.
Learn what you face, and plan accordingly.
Accept defeat, try a new tactic.

It is called Hard Mode for a reason. You are essentially asking them to make one part (Vanquishing) of Hard Mode easy. Is it possible? Yes, I have seen screenshots of people who have Legendary Vanquisher, and claim they did so with heroes/hench. I myself have Vanquished 50% of the game so far, using only heroes/hench.

It would be nice to know the DP of hench, but I doubt that will happen. Since you already get +50% XP from kills, they have already given you a way to reduce DP.

Vanquishing takes a decent amount of time. Because of this, PUGs will always be hard to find. Heroes/hench are better than PUGs half the time or more anyway. If you feel that using heroes and hench is not the way to do it, I suggest recruiting people from your guild, or friends you have met in game.

freekedoutfish · May 27, 2007, 10:50 PM // 22:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by MagmaRed

If you feel that using heroes and hench is not the way to do it, I suggest recruiting people from your guild, or friends you have met in game.

Come on, you know that would never happen, its extremely unlikely anyone would help someone else vanquish.

Most people i've actually spoken to still dont even know what hard mode is!

And most times i ask in guild or alliance for help on mission in HM, i get no replies.

Finding someone to help vanquish just wont happen, not for a long time. Its like exploring, its something that people will just learn to do alone and it will stay an AI aided thing.

Seeing our henches DP is a neccessity and Anet giving us something from the merchant to remove full or part DP is needed to, if they expect us to work to that mechanism.

Aera Lure · May 27, 2007, 11:06 PM // 23:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by freekedoutfish

Come on, you know that would never happen, its extremely unlikely anyone would help someone else vanquish.

Agreed. I cannot get assistance to do hard mode missions. Cannot imagine assistance to do hard mode vanquishing. Its why I am looking for PUGs and other partial guild groups doing hard mode missions only, surprise surprise, I cannot find them. Now yes, I can actually do hard mode with heroes and henchmen. A fair majority of it probably, just as MagmaRed says. My problem is I do not want to. I am just bored to tears with playing with AI and cant do it anymore. Once in a blue moon I do so i at least accomplish something in hard mode. Need a solution for finding other hard mode players or letting it go comepletely.

Anyway, freekedoutfish's ideas seem to me to not be much to ask, nor do they seem to really make hard mode any easier probably. Nonetheless I dont think it will happen. Anet's unofficial stance seems more to be along the lines of "play with at least one other human if you dont like henchmen or, better yet, all humans." Well, wish I could, more reliably, honestly.

Faer · May 28, 2007, 02:01 AM // 02:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by freekedoutfish

Finding someone to help vanquish just wont happen

It happens all the time in many PvE guilds and, surprisingly, even relatively often in the GWG IRC.

Maybe you just aren't looking for help in the right places.

MagmaRed · May 28, 2007, 02:24 AM // 02:24

I don't want to sound like an ass, but if you can't even get a reply to a request for help in Guild/Alliance chat, find a good guild. I am in a guild that consists of myself and 1 friend right now. However, I know of several people who I can ask to do things with. I can easily find at least 1 person to at least respond to me. If you want to do things in Hard Mode, and NOBODY in your guild does, find a new guild. If you don't want to do that, try using the friends list (as I do) and talk to people about what you are doing, what you need, and see if they want to join you.

It sounds like you want to play with other people, but at the same time, it sounds like you don't know how to communicate with other people.

Aera Lure · May 28, 2007, 03:00 AM // 03:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by MagmaRed

I don't want to sound like an ass, but if you can't even get a reply to a request for help in Guild/Alliance chat, find a good guild. I am in a guild that consists of myself and 1 friend right now. However, I know of several people who I can ask to do things with. I can easily find at least 1 person to at least respond to me. If you want to do things in Hard Mode, and NOBODY in your guild does, find a new guild. If you don't want to do that, try using the friends list (as I do) and talk to people about what you are doing, what you need, and see if they want to join you.

It sounds like you want to play with other people, but at the same time, it sounds like you don't know how to communicate with other people.

Not sure who you mean and I wont speak for freekedoutfish, but its not always that simple. I'm in a guild that is not oriented around hard mode team play. Most guilds have members that will come help you for something, but not all will have people oriented around going through three continents of hard mode help. It would surely be nice to be somewhere that was like that, considering its what I wish to do, but i also do have a bit of loyalty and sentimentality with where I am.

Sometimes i consider moving to somewhere else. I may, but I struggle with doing so. There are quite likely other people to whom "find a better guild", for whatever their reasons, cant or dont wish to do so. Maybe that's the answer but, unless you know people in a guild like that, you might be searching for it longer than Sir Pellinore.

Almost everyone on my friends list is a PvP player and many are, and have been for some time now, inactive, even though there is a core group I have known for two years now that is always on. Because I dont have friends online at the moment that I can call on to do hard mode with doesnt necessarily mean I dont know how to communicate or have friends online, either. Again i like to think there might be others out there in a similar position, with friends new to the game that cant play hard mode yet, friends that arent online for long, ones that mostly PvP or farm or any number of things really.

Probably that's the reason why my posts in Sardelac are usually concerned with aid for hard mode players to find each other in game. Much as I read around, finding people to play hard mode with is not unique to my experience. Many are having trouble with it. Its admittedly the angle I came at here when I saw freekedoutfish's remarks.

I understand what you're saying, but my point is success in hard mode is as much circumstance and luck as anything else, and generalizations like "find a better guild" or "make better friends" may not always do it.

the_jos · May 28, 2007, 08:43 AM // 08:43

Quote:

We need to recover from DP faster from kills.
We need something sold at the merchant that removes DP from you and/or your entire team, which is cheap.

Scrolls?

On the topic of getting people to play with you.
If the only thing you do at the moment is vanquishing or getting Guardian title, find a Hard Mode guild.
Even with such a guild, you'll probably alone with heroes/hench if you want to vanquish areas when you like. But it enables you to schedule the harder areas with people from the guild. Or just get 1 or 2 humans in your team, making it a lot easier.

For those that don't want to leave their guild: if you play HM with someone, specially vanquishing, put them on friends list and call them if you are going to vanquish. They might be able to help or schedule something with you.
Or look at forums for people that also want to vanquish.

Quote:

I understand what you're saying, but my point is success in hard mode is as much circumstance and luck as anything else, and generalizations like "find a better guild" or "make better friends" may not always do it.

Not entirely true.
You can manipulate luck by joining a better guild.
This is true for all high end areas and PvP.
It's just hard to find out whether or not a guild is a better guild.
In PvP, you can look at guild rank or the rank of individual players.
In PvE, you can only know when you join a guild team and play with them.

Since Hard Mode is 'new', there are not that many 'good' Hard Mode guilds around.
People have to get their guild to work on Hard Mode (if they want) or form new guilds, which takes time.

Meat Axe · May 28, 2007, 09:43 AM // 09:43

I agree that you should look for a PvE guild. I'm in a PvE guild, one mostly made up of Australian players (so it can't be that hard to find one for other regions), and every night they get a group together to vanquish something. Also, if anyone needs help with something, they can post on the forums and the guild will organise a time that they'll be available to help. So no, you won't find a guild that will do the areas you want all the time, but you could start looking for one that will allow you to arrange to get some help at a specific time.

But to be honest, I haven't had too much difficulty so far. I haven't vanquished that much at the moment (I only do it every couple of days), but the only area I've tried and given up on is Eastern Frontier. Grawls are just too annoying. Every other area I've either done in one try, or just needed to tweak builds a bit. I've never encountered a rit boss yet, but there is a simple way to avoid a lot of the damage to your party from spirit rift. As soon as you see that little globe rising at your feet or near you, just run. It's hard to save your henchies, since they tend to clump together, but as long as you save a few party members from damage, your monks should be able to heal the rest. In theory, anyway.

freekedoutfish · May 28, 2007, 09:43 AM // 09:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by MagmaRed

I don't want to sound like an ass, but if you can't even get a reply to a request for help in Guild/Alliance chat, find a good guild.

In the 18 months ive played, I must have been in around 5 or 6 guilds and on average, they start off ok, but slowly turn into a complete waste of time.

From my experience, people only help you if they will gain something form it. They wont do HM missions that they dont need themselves, and since no on is bothered about vanquishing, no one wants to help with it.

People always make the same statements when people say they cant find PUGs or decent AI...

"Just use your guild, or your alliance"

...but its never that simple. The number of decent, helpfull guilds are small. The bast majority are full of people who will only help if they need it. But it also because most people are busy when you need help. I know im always busy when someone posts asking for help. Alot of people turn off their guild and alliance chat too, because its distracting during missions or instances. Mines hardly ever one because of that.

We shouldnt have to rely on guilds that dont do anything, or AI that cant handle hard mode effectively. If Anet knows its really hard to get a team together for hard mode, they need to give us something to make life bit easier, due to resorting to AI.

Icons over peoples heads to so show who is in Hard Mode.
Food to remove dp levels on the whole team.
Letting us see hench dealth penality.
Reducing the rate of death penelity or increasing the recovery!

Something, anything to make it a bit less painfull when we have to resort to using AI that is basically useless. Or something to make forming HM teams easier.

Every time i lag · May 28, 2007, 11:22 AM // 11:22

aint gud to use henches for hm lol
maybe sign up for vanquishing?

Div · May 28, 2007, 12:36 PM // 12:36

"Vanquishing in HM needs made a bit less painfull!"

...Because I suck and can't handle the game in a harder mode? Seriously, I've found a way to vanquish every area I've encountered so far with just heroes+henchies. Sure it's going to be more challenging than normal mode, but that's why it's called hard mode. It's not impossible, and it's meant to only be achieved by the most dedicated players.

Aera Lure · May 28, 2007, 03:38 PM // 15:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by holymasamune

"Vanquishing in HM needs made a bit less painfull!"

...Because I suck and can't handle the game in a harder mode? Seriously, I've found a way to vanquish every area I've encountered so far with just heroes+henchies. Sure it's going to be more challenging than normal mode, but that's why it's called hard mode. It's not impossible, and it's meant to only be achieved by the most dedicated players.

No one said they couldnt do it with heroes and henchmen. Last I checked the topic was about reducing some of the severe annoyances associated simply with the DP restriction. I can also vanquish with heroes and henchmen. I simply dont want to. With your attitude I hope you stay playing with the AI frankly.

Quote:

Originally Posted by the_jos

Not entirely true.
You can manipulate luck by joining a better guild.
This is true for all high end areas and PvP.
It's just hard to find out whether or not a guild is a better guild.
In PvP, you can look at guild rank or the rank of individual players.
In PvE, you can only know when you join a guild team and play with them.

Since Hard Mode is 'new', there are not that many 'good' Hard Mode guilds around.
People have to get their guild to work on Hard Mode (if they want) or form new guilds, which takes time.

I like your reply. You're right, and MagmaRed was not wrong either - nor did I mean to imply that in the first place - just that it basically isnt always as simple as it was made to sound.

Have a cookie.

Aera · May 28, 2007, 03:45 PM // 15:45

Scrolls.

bye dp.

MithranArkanere · May 28, 2007, 04:08 PM // 16:08

I already made an idea about DP removing potions, that could be sold in Scroll traders.

I think that would be enough.

Spazzer · May 28, 2007, 05:10 PM // 17:10

If you are going into a difficult area, you can sent one of your heroes back who has rebirth. Even if you wipe, you'll still have your little resbot back there as a safety.